Today's news that the CFL Argos are once again talking about a move to BMO Field has been received by most TFC fans as an annoyance rather than an outright threat. It's thought that the conversion to grass, which started in full force today, would make a full-time move by a gridiron team a non-starter.
Fans ought to be worried.
According to several well placed sources inside TFC the threat of the Argos moving to BMO Field is very real. Actually, it's advanced further than it ever has to this point. Not only have the Argos ownership been "talking to" city officials, as they have claimed in several news sources today, but they have actually submitted a formal letter of intent to the city to make the move.
The letter is "well crafted" and contains many provisions designed to make the shared ground seem workable. Included is an agreement to allow TFC and the CSA to maintain first rights in scheduling matters, a promise not to change the dimensions of the field, and a pledge to "repair" the field after every CFL game played on it.
There are serious doubts over whether repairing the pitch would be possible. Certainly, a 72-hour flip would be the minimum time needed. However, the CFL plays a great deal of games on Fridays, which would create a scheduling nightmare for TFC in the fall (or force the Argos off of TSN's Friday Night Football almost entirely). TFC, of course, mostly plays Saturday afternoon games, which would provide less than 20-hours for the field to be “repaired.”
Fans should not expect MLSE to make a public statement against the possible move. They can't. As the public caretakers of the stadium they are forced into a Switzerland role. However, the soccer operations people are dead-set against this happening.
It was suggested to me that fans need to make sure that the Argos understand that the soccer community will not accept the move. The team can be reached at info@argonauts.ca. Additionally, it would be nice if fans reminded media personalities in the city that it was the Argos that pulled out of the Varsity and York stadium deals, rather than the soccer community pushing the CFL team away. That act very nearly jeopardized the 2007 u-20 tournament and TFC itself. Yet, the Argos continue to portray themselves as the victim of those shifty soccer people.
Friday, November 27, 2009
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101 comments:
fuck the argos
Argos are shit and making them play outside isnt gonna make them better. Especially with grass their just gonna ruin it for everyone and all the money for that grass will go down the drain
MLS soccer is so bush league it amazes me why so many people are upset about this. MLS is not even in the top 50 leagues in the world. The players are so bad they cannot make it anywhere else. Besides its a taxpayer built stadium, let the Argos in.
Lamport's a FULLY taxpayer-built stadium (unlike BMO which was partially funded by MLSE), so the Argos can go there.
Oh, and Anonymous the Soccer Expert, please go ahead and name 49 soccer leagues better than MLS.
We'll wait...
While you're figuring that out, I'll simply state that the cost to get into that "bush league" is $35-40 million (US), while the cost to get into the CFL is around $4 million (CDN).
The sheer comparative economics of MLS soccer vs. CFL football ensure that the Argos are in as long as the city and the CFL are okay with the move. At this point, the CFL is the more likely impediment to the change than anyone in the soccer world.
The possessiveness of BMO Field that I've heard from TFC fans over the past few years is quite frankly astounding. I've never heard of it from fans of any other sport. Especially since they never owned the stadium in the first place.
This is a major threat to our Soccer Only stadium. This is definitely no joke.
The city is more than happy to ruin what is a perfectly good soccer stadium in the name of making a few extra bucks.
MLSE...get smart...buy this stupid pointyball franchise, leave it at Skydome, do your best to make it as viable as possible but don't let TFC and its supporters suffer while you sit on the sidelines. Its time to be aggressive because under no circumstances should BMO Field be shared with the pointyball crowd. It was built as a soccer specific stadium and should remain as such.
I can tell you this much...if I ever see faint gridlines on the BMO Field grass, I'm gone for good as a TFC supporter because this problem is entirely fixable. MLSE has the money to fix the problem, once and for all. Buy the Argos Mr. Tannenbaum, Teacher's pension fund, et al. Do the Right Thing.
VPjr
What is the point of building a soccer specific stadium that is supposed to the center for high-level soccer in Canada and then let the CFL ruin the turf. Just wait for the MLS game on the afternoon after an evening raining mudbowl CFL game. If you think the players hated the artificial turf wait til they are getting injured by potholes.
Say No to the CFL at BMO Field.
I will boycott TFC if Argos move in.
Rudi, you're right that there aren't 50 leagues better than MLS - but I can easily think of at least 20 that I would rate superior from top to bottom.
Make no mistake about it - MLS is very minor league soccer that would be far down on the totem poll in Europe or South America.
As for the CFL, they are the second best professional gridiron football league in the world right now. Of course, its a sport that isn't as geographically dispersed but that doesn't take away from that fact.
Furthermore, when it comes to business and ratings, the CFL is now a behemoth in Canadian sports and MLS is a fruit fly. The CFL games average at minimum 500,000 English Canada and 100,000 French Canada viewers (and usually quite a bit higher) no matter what time and who is playing - and MLS is often lucky to break 100,000-150,000 even on CBC. The division finals last week had 2.2 million and 1.9 million viewers each, all Canadian and the former game had less than 100,000 viewers below Hockey Night in Canada's early games (MTL, TOR and OTT). The Grey Cup may very well break 5 million viewers.
We've got to be thankful as TFC fans that we've got a good team and great fans in a good stadium that we can root for. We're not going to stop this with any protests or emails - why would the Argos management care what TFC fans think, they probably don't even have a joint season ticket holder? We need to keep our voices up to make sure we can keep some priorities - like scheduling to protect the field condition.
We don't own the building, we shouldn't expect people to treat us like we do.
Boycott TFC for something they can't control?
That sounds REALLY bright...
Do you understand what gridiron football does to a grass field, especially after a rain fall (which tends to happen in the fall when both the CFL and MLS are gearing up for important playoff games) ?
TFC fans are possessive, especially in the face of the Argos, because the Argos had their chsnce so many damned times to go in as equal partners in this stadium, but chose instead to use it as leverage for a sweetheart deal in a stadium that they now cannot get out of fast enough. All the while seriously jeopardizing the World U-20 Cup (the very reason the stadium was built) and TFC.
MLSE put in $18 million towards the project (that's nearly 30 per cent) to get it done on time and to the specifications that the soccer community - which did ALL of the leg work, including soliciting the funding from the governments - needed.
MLSE has just now poured another $3.5 million into a state-of-the-art grass field, plus another $2 million to build a practice field to satisfy the community usage. That's also $24 million invested by MLSE (TFC) into the project valued at $62.5 million.
The Argos seem to want to just swoop into the stadium while not having fronted a dime. They seem entirely unwilling to pay for whatever expansion is needed, and why would they? Their owners didn't even pay for the paltry franchise fee with their own money.
It is not the Argos' God-given right to play at BMO Field and try to cash in on the atmosphere that TFC fans have created there. Sure, it's not TFC's God-given right to be the sole main tenant, but they've contributed a hell of a lot more than the Argos have (and ever will).
That's why TFC fans are possessive over the stadium. Nothing against the Argos, but there is no way they could move into the stadium without completely fucking it up for the original tenant, no matter how much sweet talking they do.
Jermaine, what's the point of saying that there are better leagues than MLS.
ANY SOCCER FAN WORTH HIS SALT ALREADY KNOWS THAT!!!!
The reason we watch MLS isn't because we think it's the best soccer around. It IS however, the best domestic soccer around, and by supporting the local game we are contributing to its growth.
I would think that fans of the freaking CFL would understand this more than anyone else. No one watches the CFL because it's the best gridiron game around. Everyone knows that that title falls to the NFL.
But that's not why people watch the CFL. They watch because it is THEIRS, which is the same reason we watch MLS.
None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, though.
I seriously doubt that Argos will move simply because the economics of it don't work and the CFL probably won't allow it. This is just a smokescreen to get a good lease out of Rogers. Rogers wants to charge a lot more for rent than they used to, so this is a ploy by the Argos to get a reasonable deal from Rogers Centre.
AAAAAAAARRRRRGGOOOOOOSSSSSSS!!!!!1
(I can't believe no one had done that yet.)
I can't help but notice that Jermaine refuses to run off a list of 50 soccer leagues better than MLS.
So if the argos and the CFL is such a behemoth then why they aren't filling up the Rogers Center?
TV ratings don't mean shit. We are talking about a stadium where people go to watch the sport in person and more specifically we are talking about the pitch at that stadium. Anyone who knows anything about soccer knows that the playing surface is the most important part of the stadium, that is why mlse is investing all this money into a new surface and not toilets or canteens.
This is supposed to be the stadium for the canadian national soccer team ffs. take your pointyball and go find another place to play.
MLS was rated the 76 best league in the world by some FIFA ranking body last year. Its sad because I did not even know that there was that many.
The reality here is that MLSE and Rogers conspired to screw the Argos over...
It was actually the Argos who got the whole idea going...and then Rogers, Lind, and Godfry got into the Ear of Tanenbaum to muddle the whole thing up.
Toronto's NFL dream litterally will die on Thursday. Apparently only 13000 tickets have been sold for the Bills game... Despite giveaways...there will be over 10000 empty seats on Thursday....
The Argos will gain instint legetimatcy when the rest of the Bills in Toronto series is cancelled....
If Rogers does not cancell the deal I would be blown away... Next years preseason game would look like a UFL game if it is actually played..
Since the series will be cancelled... alot of sponsors and fans will flow to the Argos...and thus they will never leave Skydome...
I tell ya what though... The Blue Jays will be leaving skydome very soon...
Another thing... Who cares how successful TFC is... The New England Revolution were one of the better teams in the league this season....and they couldnt draw 5000 fans...
Teams in San Jose and Dallas did even worse.....
The whole MLS is in trouble... and two teams can't make their own league...
You miles while all get on the cFL bandwagon.... By 2015... MLB will be history in Toronto..and the MLS will be history.... The NFL will NEVER come to Toronto (thanks Phil) and only the Leafs and Argos will be around..........Even the Raptors could be toast... If the NBA stops putting them on welfare... The Raptors generate 0 TV revenue...and thus are gifted an equal share when they don't deserve any....
as an Argo fan i like the idea, but 20k seats? come on are we kidding here...
^^^ The above troll goes by the following names:
- Berezin
- JoeKnowsIt
- Rick Grace
Pity him because he is a fool.
^ The one at 5:03 PM, to be exact.
TFC has created a genuine and credible sporting experience in Toronto (notwithstanding the actual on-field product), something that has alluded the Argos for quite some time. This is a ridiculous attempt by the Argos to piggy back on that success in the manner of a hermit crab... Shame on them!
Why do they not emulate their own kind in Montreal? Like TFC, the Alouettes have also created a great sporting experience at Molson Stadium - without pissing on the Impact's rug. They have also been able to parlay that success into big time crowds for the select games at the Big O.
Seems the best spot the Argos could play in is at Varsity Stadium...
The Argos need out of Rogers centre but not at BMO Field. How would they play at BMO Field the demensions are not CFL demensions, this is just silly. Its to bad Varsity Stadium never worked out. Lamport Stadium with a makeover would also be great or what about that park with swings and big slide.
MLS? What's that?
Also shouldn't it be called TSC (Toronto Soccer Club)
It's amazing how MLSE has suckered all you guys thinking MLS is actually football. Haha, like what division 17 in europe?
Even a crap country like Canada has players playing in division 4 in some third world country over Minor League Soccer.
MLS in bush league Minor leage brutal
Random thought here, but would it not be difficult for the Argos to play on a modified field? For example, if the endzone is shorter than every other field in the league, would they not have to scale back their play selection, and alter their strategy? May seem like a little thing, but they would have to do this for half thier games, not to mention the time it would take away from working on regualar endzone play selection. Seems like a competitive disavantage to me. If the width of the field is effected, that would seem like a big problem for a CFL offense. Anyways, I hope they don't move to BMO.
MLS is such a bush league.....I would say there are comfortably 30 soccer leagues in the world better. Why do ppl care about this garbage?
ARRRRRRRGGGGOSSSS!!!!
Argos have been around for over 100 years, why are we even talking about this fringe bush soccer league what a joke, i think the average attendance for most MLS teams is like 8000 its total bush league...
Why do these soccer fans call it pointy ball?
This is Canada it's called Canadian FOOTBALL!!
Move back to England or something.
MLS ....is brutal ...who cares unless you born in Cameroon or something..I"m Canadian...ARRRRGOOOOOOOOOOS
To all you Argo fans, the MLS CUP was viewed in 142 countries. Now, how many other countries will be watching the Gray Cup?
The irony of CFL fans referring to MLS as bush league. This is the same CFL where half the rosters have full time jobs
Here's some Argos and Cfl exec's email's if you want to write them and express your concerns. I made it clear I would not attend another Cfl game or watch on TV, or purchase products from their sponsors.
mcohon@cfl.ca mcopeland@cfl.ca mmaychak@cfl.ca rassimakopoulos@cfl.ca jnishino@cfl.ca dallison@cfl.ca kmcdonald@cfl.ca asciarra@cfl.ca
dcynamon@KIKCORP.COM hsokolowski@tributecommunities.com bnicholson@argonauts.ca mclemons@argonauts.ca mafinec@argonauts.ca jnalevka@argonauts.ca dsteinfeld@argonauts.ca
Andrew says:
So getting past all the "our league is better than your league" bs that has dominated this thread so far, it's become clear that this just isn't a good deal for anyone involved.
MLSE and by extension TFC have invested a ton of money into BMO over the past three years to make it their home and now the Argos want to come over without investing a dime and do some serious damage to the turf MLSE just spent 3.5 mil putting in? I'm sure someone over at head office would have a problem with that.
The dimensions of BMO are not adequate for the CFL and so either there would have to be major renovations or the Argos would be forced to completely revamp their plays for home and away. Something I'm sure the coaching staff would really love.
Also - I'm sure the CFL wouldn't look too kindly on a team playing on a field that is not to standard dimensions.
Finally, and probably most importantly, the Argos have been playing like crap for the past two seasons and yet still manage to draw 22000+ a game. Lord only knows how many tickets they could sell if they strung a few winning seasons together and there is no way that the Argo owners (whoever they end up being) will choose to move to a stadium with 2000 less seats than what they normally draw.
To sum up - it's bad for both TFC and the Argos financially, TFC fans definitely don't want the Argos at BMO, and Argo fans (at least the ones I know) don't want to move either. Seems more likely that the Argos FO is trying to get a better deal out of Rogers than an actual attempt to move the team.
The MLS is bush league? The CFL has 5 teams and two of them are called the Roughriders...
MLS = BUSH LEAGUE
Have you ever seen an MLS game from New York or Kansas City playing on converted football field in front of like 5000in a 60,000 stadium.??
The teams don't even own the contracts in the MLS. The league controls contracts just like some minor league....
The MLS Cup was not even on Basic Cable in North America wtf ???? BUSH LEAGUE
Really Markus ... well bush league last year had more total attendance in Toronto than the CFL did and also higher average ticket prices.
Let's not forget that the soccer friendlies on top of that more than crush any need for a tiny number of CFL games a year.
Go find your own stadium and quit bitching because you missed the boat when your cheap ownership opted for free rent at skydome.
@Markus
Is the Grey Cup on basic cable?
New York is opening up a new SSS next year and Kansas City is in the process of building a new stadium.
The Grey Cup is on TSN what planet do you live on????
Combine the Argos with the Ti-cats 40 minutes down the road and the CFL has twice the attendance and ten times the television ratings in the Golden Horseshoe.
Addaway Rudi....the south stands love ya, lad!
I wonder how many supporters groups the Argos have? Would they actually sit in the rain and cold and wind, playing steel drums, or making obscenely large banners to commemorate their icons? Would Argos fans sing throughout the game, or hassle the refs, or have a season ticket holder waiting list that lasts about 2-3 years? How about the number of visiting players who have said that the atmosphere at BMO is the closest thing they've ever seen to an EPL match in North America?
Look at the other MLS franchises that share their playing fields:
Kansas City Wizards @ Kaufmann Stadium: A joke. An oddly-shaped joke.
New York Redbulls @ Giants Stadium: Just watch the last game TFC played there this season and you'll quickly see my point. Puddles, gridiron lines.
How do you expect to get a team anywhere NEAR the caliber of Real Madrid again when you have Nigel Reed shouting "Ronaldo is rushing down the flanks...he's at the 40, he's at the 30, the 20...looking for a cross...."
A joint-custodial sharing of BMO would be the beginning of the end for Toronto FC, as it would drive countless of irate footy fans away from the team they've embraced so quickly.
Markus made the comment that the MLS Cup was not on basic cable, well the Grey Cup is not on basic cable if it were it would be on CBC or CTV etc.
Why then do the Argos and Ti-Cats lose money, if what you are saying is true?
why don't any of these argos "fans" have the guts to leave their name?
@ Bob,
cuz I think it is the same guy who has been posting everything on the globe & mail, Big Soccer and in here. lol!
I just can't believe that an Argo fan would try and justify this move, if I were a big fan I would be extremely embarrassed. Wasn't the Skydome built for Argo and Jay fans, so they didn't have to get wet????? Maybe we should just swap stadium, install grass at the dome and have the TFC fans show the tohers that there really can be an atmosphere :)BTW, wasn't the L'Impact game crazy at Olympic Stadium last year??
If the CFL is okay with the move, I say do it. GO ARGOSSSSSS!
and I get TSN on my BASIC cable package, where do all of you live?
@ Anonymous
I never said that there were 50 leagues better than MLS. In fact, I said the opposite. There are definitely quite a few, at least 20-25. I can take a crack at it if you'd like...in no particular order, just higher calibre play than MLS
EPL, La Liga, Italy Serie A, Bundesliga 1, Coca-Cola Championship, Italy B, Brazilian Serie A, Eridivise, French Ligue 1, French Ligue 2, Argentinian Premier, Portugal SuperLiga, Turkish Super League, Scottish PL, Mexican PL, Spanish Segunda, K-League, Belgian League, Bundesliga 2, Danish SuperLiga, Russian Premier League and probably J-League.
Most other leagues have at least one club that is significantly better than most MLS teams.
But that is pretty irrelevant in this discussion. We're a passionate bunch and our team deserves that. No matter how much we love the game, we can't forget that from a business sense we are very little fish and it's still massively unlikely that it will every become a big professional sport in this country. People will always look towards the "old country", so we shouldn't be surprised that more substantial leagues in Canada (NHL and CFL) will have this kind of clout.
I am still waiting for a list of 20 soccer leagues that are better than MLS. I bet he can't even come up with 10 solid choices.
BMO field is a mickey mouse stadium why would the Argos who average 30k a year want to play at a dog track
LOL @ dog track....TFC are bottom feeders in a bush league. I find it funny how MLSE tricked these idiots into thinking the MLS is a major league.
MLS averages 15k , this is truly a bush league, minor league contracts issued by the league total bush, infact embarrassing,no history TFC is a joke..nothing Canadian about it at all, infact its just supported by wanna be Canadians.
Well this thread certainly has blown up. I'm pretty sure it's a record for this site.
Actually FIFA 2010 rates MLS teams roughly on par with England's Championship League. Suck on that.
I'm sick of these genius' and their talk about MLS being bush league...last I checked TFC was making money, and the Argo's have ownership who were looking to offload the team. One league is expanding including 2 teams in Canada, the other has retracted (Ottawa TWICE).
You want to talk about money and contracts? Compare average salaries in the two leagues. CFL players make peanuts and teams have a 1 million dollar salary cap. Name me ONE CFL team with a value equal to TFC at $50 million dollars, I'd bet ALL the teams COMBINED don't touch that.
BMO is soccer specific and should remain as such. Argos have their Stadium, and had countless opportunities to move that they messed up. Not TFC's problem. Broke, can't afford a new stadium? Wait until after the PAN-AM debacle and jump in there. Until then sit down shutup and enjoy your dirt cheap lease at the Dome.
Bush league indeed.
Why are we even comparing the beautiful game to American/Canadian football? Which one is more worthy for us to follow? That is not the issue being discussed here. If people are not going post constructive arguments about what is discussed in the blog then they shouldn't. Otherwise they risk sounding like brain dead hicks with "aaarrrrggggoooosss" or pissed off intolearnt soccer nuts with " fuck the Argos". And to the guy who said that Canada is a shit country, I'm not even going to respond to a cunt like you.
As for the Argos moving to BMO field, it will defintely bring down the the game for TFC and the Canadian National teams for reasons already posted here. Secondly, will the league modify it's field and rules just to accomodate the Argos. What message does that send to the league? Also, the Argo owners seem to be too cheap to run a 7/11 let alone a professional sports team. Are these guys ever going to put any money down to improve this team or do they always need a handout? If they can't survive at Rogers center with no rent, how can they do it at BMO with rent and a decreased capacity.
I say good luck to the Argos under better ownership, but Canada's national soccer stadium is not for them.
It's unbelievable that we are even discussing this fringe bush league (MLS) on a weekend that we should be celebrating real football, Canadian Football, this is Canada after all. The Grey will probably attract in the neighbourhood of five million viewers this weekend, something which TFC can only dream about. Canadian Football has a rich 120 year history in this country, TFC has three years.
I'm sick of people saying we have to like soccer because foreigners like it. This is Canada let's support our cultural traditions.
This thread should not be about the good or bad points of any sport we support, whether that be soccer or gridiron.
Good luck to the CFL and the Argo's but not at BMO Field.
What this debate SHOULD be about is the fact that the Argos owners are a couple of snakes in the grass who have never EVER put their own money down to better the lot of their club when it has counted.
Not once, but twice the Argos walked away from the Soccer community here in Toronto when deals were brokered to build and share new facilities. Each and every time it got to the point where the Argos had to write a cheque they walked away.
The Argonauts CHOSE Rogers Centre.
The Argonauts CHOSE to screw the Soccer Community TWICE.
The Argonauts CHOSE to try and get into BMO Field through the back door and CHOSE to try and do it on the cheap.
The Argonauts owners can't meet payroll and are relying upon another owner to pay the bills.
Argos fans, I wish you luck but until you have ownership that is serious about doing what it is necessary to improve your club, and that takes MONEY then you will always have this problem. The best option is to stay at Rogers Centre, and work with the City to get into the PAN AM Games stadium in 2014.
[quote]Actually, about $24 million has been invested by MLSE into the project valued which is valued at about $62.5 million. That's hardly nothing and far more than the Argos ownership could ever afford to sink into it. [/quote]
I am not here to hate on you or Soccer fans, in fact I am not a fan of the whole BMO field idea PERIOD. But I would like to know where the figures for 24million MLSE investment come from? Best I can find is the their investment was 8million.
Costs:
Total: $62 million ($72 million including land)
Federal: $27 million
Provincial: $8 million
Municipal: $9.8 million + $10 million in Land
MLSE: $8 million
Naming Rights: $10 million --- Credit given to MLSE but done with BMO money.
This is what I find troubling with this whole situation, this stadium was funded with 54million dollars of tax payer money as a [b]PUBLIC USE stadium for year round purposes[/b]. But has effectively been taken out of PUBLIC USE by this new deal between the city and MLSE for natural grass. Now this I don't blame on soccer fans but on short sighted city officials who approved this idea. I do acknowledge that MLSE is paying some 5-6 million of their own money to make it happen and renovating the Lamport Stadium with their own money for public use.
But here is where we as tax payers got dooped by our own city. Lamport Stadium was, is and will remain public property. After a 54million investment by tax payers we're left with a stadium the city already owned and could have renovated on it's own for much much cheaper then 54million that was put into BMO field. This is where my problem with the entire BMO field issues lie, it's not about dislike for soccer, or wanting into the stadium it is the fact that we as tax payers have gotten played. I've written on several occasions to my city councilor as well as MPP and MP on these issues with little result so far... Sadly...
interesting how this turns into a cfl vs. mls brawl. CFL is a unique brand of sport that garners huge ratings in Canada. regular season games bring in viewership in the millions. MLS is a bush league with hilarious tv ratings, in regards to naming 50 leagues better than the MLS. i can name 1. my 7 yr old neighbors house league
If the TV ratings are so hilarious for MLS why do they get 4 times the revenue from their TV contracts?
And to Boris: The $54m in taxpayer money was from all levels of government was to fund a NATIONAL SOCCER STADIUM. The only reason it got built was for the Under 19 FIFA World Cup. It should have never been installed with artificial turf - the city and MLSE have corrected the problem. If the Argos or Ti-Cats want funding for a NATIONAL FOOTBALL STADIUM then by all means go to all levels of gov't and see what happens. The Argos balked twice at deals which required them to pay - now they want to get it for free. I don't think so. And by the way, the taxpayers paid $400m for Skydome and the Argos were paying rent-free.
yes we did pay for the skydome, How does that justify paying for another white elephant which is exactly what BMO field is. As a Toronto resident and Tax Payer, i dont want a "National Football Stadium" or a "National Soccer Stadium" for that matter. We are obviously not a soccer country nor will we ever be. What is this crap, Every sh@t team in Toronto is going to get their own stadium on our dime while 100 of thousands are losing their jobs and getting taxed up the ying yang. I dont want to pay for another stadium, i want the teams to share it, and if the Argos can make a better go of it at BMO then so be it. I could care less if there are amateur looking hash marks on the field, it suits the quality of soccer on the field anyways. As far as revenue goes. the MLS probably has twice as many teams/markets which explains that, but in terms of viewership goes, the CFL gets more viewership out of 1 country than MLS gets out of all of North America. Always laughed when that twat with the LA galazy predicted the MLS was going to be bigger than the NHL. what a laugher.
Shawn you must be an idiot the reason their contract is bigger is because they operate in the United States with 10 times the population.
We're talking Canadian Television Ratings here.
And the ratings are BUSH LEAGUE.
With regards to Anonymous' Ratings tirade, do you really think that reflects Toronto? Curling gets good ratings in this country, but when the Briar was held in Hamilton it drew tiny crowds from the GTA. Or even better when the Grey Cup was in toronto and majority of the people that went were from out of town.
It's been proven that the Argo's generate fringe interest in this City...people didn't even know when they won the Grey in 04' and small numbers showed up to celebrate at Nathan Phillips Square, they didn't even have a parade because they knew it wouldn't draw much interest.
Calgary, Regina, Edmonton and Winnipeg generate these high ratings you talk about. In Toronto, Argos are an after thought, the facts speak for themselves.
Brandon why don't you move to France if you like soccer so much?
The Argos are an afterthought, yes they are, and so are the Jays,Raptors and most certainly TFC. Its a Leafs town. Jays bring in crowds of 11 thousand as soon as the season end is in sight, TFC cant even sell out every game and they still have the novelty of being new. The Raptors are the Leafs 2nd class roomies as usual. The problem for the Argos is that they play in Toronto. Where the people have no class and even less sense. Thats why the NFL gets decent ratings in TO, because there are not many football fans but there are no shortage of degenerate and gamblers which suits the NFL perfectly. But i may be wrong, seeing as the Toronto Bills experiment has been a disaster.
If you hate the CFL, you are a commie foreigner, get the f@ck outa Canada!!! 120 yrs and counting MF'ers. Go Riders
Let's face it TFC plays in a very small stadium; 10,000 less seats than Ivor Wynne in Hamilton. Even with this they cannot sell out every game. Last season they had many claimed sell-outs but if watched the games on t.v. (not many did)you would have seen lots of scattered red (empty) seats. Rest assured the novelty act is quickly wearing off.
wow, i could not imagine spending my hard earned money for a ticket to watch that level of soccer. go to your local park and watch a kids game and go out for a steak dinner after
The people who talk about MLS being a joke only show their ignorance.
Dont' take it out on MLS that the CFL is dying.
Anyone who supports the CFL only does so on the backs of more than a century of previous support. That is a good thing.
People supporting MLS now are at the start of something. Anyone who knows the game knows that.
You know what people have been predicting the demise of the CFL for years now....and it never happens. The CFL just keeps on chugging along.
As for the MLS, this summer I noticed an MLS game on Sportsnet, TFC was playing Dallas - what a joke!! Probably a 15,000-20,000 stadium could not have been more than 5,000 in the stands. Mostly seemed to be people of mexican heritage or soccer moms & kids. A complete minor league joke!!!! The level of play was unwatchable they couldnt control the off the chest, couldnt cross the ball worth sh*t, a bunch of 14 year olds could have given them a run for their money.
I am reading all of these CFL posts (probably by the same person) and it simply reminds me of how much footie is feared in North America. Just think about this, no other sport gets attacked in North America besides soccer. You guys come on here and have hammered down 30 times that the MLS is bush league, yet Paul Allen, Jeff Mallet, and many other billionaires are lining up to buy a franchise for 35mil! hmmmmmm You guys can attack the MLS, but there is more growth in the MLS and when Vancouver and Montreal get in the league then you can pay attention to ratings. But hey I don't have to tell you guys, you are already fearful of the growth of soccer.
i live in Etobicoke, i got an idea. give the Argos BMO Field, and move TFC to Centennial Park Stadium , i can watch for free from the top of the ski hill. bitchin.
The Cfl fans speak and all the soccer fan can say is " must be the same poster" . talk about fear. I am actually a big soccer fan every 2 years but i could not watch a TFC game if i was given a free ticket. it is absolutely Bush league. As far as the CFL goes. i have never been a huge football fan, But my gawd the CFL is so much more entertaining than the slow plodding 4 down NFL. Oh and here are some numbers. 8 teams, 70 something games in 2009 and attentance was over 2 million. and tonights game is expected to rake in 5 million viewers. A Great night to be Canadian even for the casual fan like myself. the true fall classic. Lets go Als
Good God, the level of ignorance on here is incredible.
A serious question to the CFL fans in here who feel the need to puff out their chests and berate MLS, TFC or soccer: Are you this insecure that you feel the need to go to a TFC-focused blog to spout your supposed superiority?
This isn't about one league versus another, or one sport versus another.
This is about the Argos owners being weasals and trying to force their way into a stadium that is unfit for their needs, and would cause complete compromise to the integrity of the game Argo fans love.
If you are a true fan of Canadian gridiron football, how can you seriously think this proposal is positive in any way?
The Argos sure as hell aren't going to pay for any upgrade to lengthen the field, and thus any CFL game played at BMO Field would be a ridiculously bastardized version of a unique sport.
Is that good enough for you guys? Shouldn't you want more from your storied team?
On the flip side, the soccer fans who enjoy BMO Field every week would also have their experience compromised, by the inevitable damage to the $3.5 million natural turf that MLSE/TFC just started to put in.
This half-assed idea is a negative to all involved.
@ Stu Gotz: "I am actually a big soccer fan every 2 years but i could not watch a TFC game if i was given a free ticket."
Actually no you're not a "big soccer fan", you're a fan of spectacle.
You prove this by talking about how you aren't a football fan but you're looking forward to the Grey Cup.
There's nothing wrong with this, of course, but please don't insult real fans (of any sport) buy thinking we give a crap what you think.
@ A whole crap load of ignorant, mostly "anonymous" posters above me: BOTH the CFL and MLS are niche, and both are doing better than people give them credit for.
When I read stupidity like "MLS Cup was not even on regular cable in North America", I want to slap those who write such crap.
MLS Cup 2009 was broadcast live and in HD on a little cable channel called ESPN (not ESPN 2, or ESPN Classic, or ESPNews, or ESPNDeportes... but the big brother network), which actually pays MLS $10 million (US) per year to broadcast the games. MLS actually rakes in about $20 million (US) per year from its various TV rights deals, and is more visible on US national TV than the NHL.
Everyone knows what growth the CFL has enjoyed over the past few years (thanks in large part to the commitment from TSN), but like MLS it still struggles in key markets.
Neither league is going away, whether people from one side of the fence or another like it.
There ya go MLS fans, how bout that Grey cup. no 1-0 bullsh@t. oh, and dont get all innocent about the integrity of soccer fans and berading of TFC fans baloney. you guys are the twats with the silly "F@ck off Argos" "not in our house" bullshit all over your soccer forums. Go peruse red patch boys, you will see how little class u degenerates and hooligans really have.
how did all these soccer haters find this site?
i assumed with pitchforks and open flames
Rudi, the proof you have no validity is that you are bringing an american angle to this story. This is a Canadian issue through and through. Your response to the CFLs impact in Canada is MLS ratings in the usa ( a country of 300 million) Talk about MLS impact in Canada where this issue is taking place.
"@ A whole crap load of ignorant, mostly "anonymous" posters above me: BOTH the CFL and MLS are niche, and both are doing better than people give them credit for."
how the hell is CFL niche in Canada?? The news just said 1 in 7 Canadians just watched the Grey Cup and that news was national and the Top story. the CFL is the #2 league in the country , MLB, NBA, NFL and MLS dont even come close to CFL viewership. MLS is niche, CFL is our culture. you cannot even compare the 2. and i like the MLS.
all this said, i am not crazy about CFL football being played in a substandard venue like BMO. i would prefer they bulldoze that gawd awful skydome and start from scratch.
TFC FANS...ENOUGH TALK..TIME TO ORGANIZE...below is the list of Political members of the the Board of Directors of the CNE who run bmo field..they are the ones we need to get to as 2010 is an election year...send this info to all tfc supporters and we need to contact these politicians and ask that that they come to their senses...the only action politicians understand is that they will have others campaign against them if they vote to allow the argos to move to bmo. Put the heat on MARK GRIMES Phone: 416-397-9273 who is a member of the argos board and hence is in conflict of interest. Remember, there is no economic arguement for the argos to play at BMO..this is all politics so we need to fight with politics. Section 1 - Municipal JOE PANTALONE 416) 392-4009 Councillor Brian Ashton Phone: 416-396-7703 Councillor Suzan Hall Phone: 416-392-4255 Councillor Doug Holyday Phone: 416-392-4002 Councillor Norm Kelly (416) 392-4047
WOW! so much hate. . .some of these comments seriously offend me. It's just sports!!!
a game, you know. . .for fun. . .
I hate money.
This whole thread has become ludricous.
A few points of interest/questions/thoughts on the subject.
1)Attendance figures are an interesting and contraversal subject for many pro sports. The CFL gets better average attendance than the NHL but nobody is going to argue that it is a more successful league in general or for its particular sport. The NHL is most successful hockey league in the world because it tends to have the best players in the world. The CFL and MLS are neither the best league by calibre of player in their respective sports. So this argument attendance argument is a red herring.
Probably a more important argument would be to look at growth and demographics to see which sport is to be more popular in the future. I don't have these figures so I can't comment one way or another.
2) The project doesn't appear to make sense for either sport since it detracts from both games for a variety of reason already pointed out. So regardless of whether you agree with a national soccer stadium or not it has been built with that specific purpose. I think ownership of the Argo's is probably going to all this to deflect from their poor performance over the last few years.
3)The CFL needs to address their popularity interest east vs west just the MLS needs to address their underperforming markets in the US.
4) You would expect the CFL and Argos with their rich history to be a better run league. Although I would say as of late since they abondoned expansion they have been improving.
Finally lets try to be civil and express ideas and constructive critism not bitching and bad mouthing.
@StephenHarpersToeJam and anyone who doesn't think that the CFL isn't a niche market sport, read this. Today's Toronto Sun.
http://www.torontosun.com/sports/football/2009/11/30/11975701-sun.html
With regards to your disagreement to the niche market theory. The article VERBATIM says exactly that.
"StephenHarpersToeJam said...
Rudi, the proof you have no validity is that you are bringing an american angle to this story."
I was NOT the one who brought the NORTH American angle into this.
Some moron brought up his belief (as fact) that MLS Cup was not on regular cable in North America, and I set him straight.
Please do try to keep up.
And yes, the CFL is very much niche in TORONTO, where this whole mess is taking place. The Argos have almost no visibility here any more, thanks in large part to the two buffoons running the show there.
How many kids do you see in this city wearing Argos gear? How many wear Leafs, Raptors, and yes, TFC jerseys?
The proof is in the pudding. The CFL is niche in Toronto, and possibly Vancouver.
Sure national TV ratings are high, but they are lower year upon year, and the regional breakdown shows just how West-dominated those ratings are.
So when the Argos pull 700k viewers, most of them are not Argos fans, but rather fans of the league, elsewhere in the country.
The CFL is niche just like MLS, maybe not as much as MLS RIGHT NOW, but the CFL has many more years in its back pocket.
Oh, and @ Justin, I don't feel the need to answer for others. I took aim directly at the people posting in here. If you have a problem with the Red Patch Boys, take it up with them.
Good one with the degenerates and hooligans thing though, very smart of you. I guess the entire world are degenerates and hooligans, since the vast majority of the world are soccer fans.
I do enjoy the stereotyping. I'll bet you're a closet racist, too.
soccer sux. footballs cool, but hockey is the best. TFC only has 16 thousand fans, and they go to every game
Dear Rudi,
I must admit I liked u alot more on the Cosby show. You need to get your facts straight, let me explain.
You said:
"CFL TV Ratings are lower every year"
WRONG - Ratings are very robust, increasing every year. If you need proof of this let me know or simply search the internet.
You Said
"The CFL is Niche"
WRONG - Do a me a favour wait two days and check the Grey Cup's television rating. You tell me if that's a 'niche' rating.
You Said:
"You're probably a closet racist" to another poster.
The most ignorant comment on this page, brutal stuff.
I think somehow you're upset that nobody cares about you're little BMO probem....oh wait somebody does care the Evil Empire @ MLSE. They need you to keep giving them all your money so they can give you a 3rd rate soccer team in return.....the jokes on you buddy, keep spending that money.
what cap some wigger wears is no indication of anything anymore. my bro wears a jays and lakers cap and is a fan of neither
The prelimenary numbers are in. a mindblowing 6.1 million people watched the Grey cup. most ever in its history. real "Niche" rudi.
How many people watched the Grey Cup?
6.1 million and 48k in the stadium. Not bad for a bush league.
Anyways why all the hate? It's ironic that TFC are so hateful towards the CFL and vice versa.
There's a marketplace for both sports in Hogtown.
To talk about the Grey Cup ratings which have NOTHING to do with this issue at hand is simply a distraction tactic from the facts. Here they are:
Despite averaging 26,000 fans, the Argos are losing money BADLY. So badly in fact that owners actually attempted to sell the team to an owner who already has a team within the CFL (David Braley in B.C). I won't even begin to discuss this "BUSH LEAGUE" situation. Imagine if MLSE put in a bid to buy the Montreal Canadians before Molson bought them?? How stupid is that. But I digress.
What makes this even more hilarious is the fact that Braley has already covered half of Toronto’s purchase fee and a percentage of the team’s losses. So basically he's helping the Argo's keep their head above water. But you idiots are right the Argo's are so popular in Toronto....HUGE, so huge in fact that they are losing a heap of money.
The Argos are losing money despite a DIRT CHEAP lease at the dome. Which brings me back to the severly inflated 26,000 average attendance. How can a team with a dirt cheap lease, averaging nearly 30,000 fans a game STILL be hemoraging money at such an astronomical rate, in a league where the salary cap is $1,000,000? Those economics don't add up. Simple. Of the 26,000, more than HALF are promotional tickets, sold severely under value or given away for free.
There it is ladies and gentlemen.
On the otherside of this situation we have TFC, with a 14,000 seat waiting list for SEASONS tickets(Paid in full), and one of the best atomspheres to watch a live sporting event in this city. To the idiot who talks about the stadium not being full when he watches some games. Um, those seats are sold. People didn't show up to the games, but the seats are SOLD. I think a sold empty seat is still better than a filled free one (Unless you follow the Argo economic model which is "Try to seem important").
Now this money hemoraging team, wants to leave Skydome because it's to big, and jump on what they deam is a gravy train at BMO, needing 12 million dollars in renovations just to join in, as well as completely ruining the whole point of natural grass being installed?
And guess who the Argo ownership intend to pay that $12 million? The Taxpayers. If you Argos fans want them at bmo they should charge YOU the $12 million, but seeing as you guys can't even make money now that would never happen.
Leave BMO as it is. Enjoy the dome.
nuckinfuts. not even sure where to start with the inacuracy of your post. lets start at the cap. the CFL salary cap is 4.2 million, not 1 million. if u cant get that right, lets just say grains of salt are all over your post.
lol, 1 million salary cap. calvillo alone makes about 400,000 a season, that would mean 20 something players have to split 600,000. where the fuck did you find that number. XD
TFC fans shouldnt try to play the tax dollar card, when i paid for your stadium and i have no interest in even seeing a soccer game. At this point, if my taxes paid for it, it makes no sense to have it sit empty all the time. if the argos want it and dates are available, then make it work. i am apparently about to pay taxes so harper and his cronies can turn maple leaf gardens into a loblaws.
history repeats. the Argos have been here since 1873. they are not going anywhere. TFC will eventually go the way of all Toronto Soccer teams (Toronto Lynx, Toronto Blizzard, Metros Croatia. FOLDSVILLE. either the club or MLS
MLS = BUSH LEAGUE nuff said
Lol wow. I was being ficiscious, but it's interesting that you jump on that salary cap comment but have nothing to say about everything else I stated.
Here some more facts: http://news.globaltv.com/sports/Argos+owners+have+enough/2100587/story.html
"Local businesses stopped returning calls. It is believed Toronto’s corporate revenue fell to somewhere around $150,000, with the team generating overall revenue of less than $2 million — some $7 million less than it cost to run the team."
2 million in revenue. Ignore the facts. Continue to bash TFC and MLS.
Bottom line, Toronto is supporting TFC, novelty act or not. Once again, I don't care about talking about how the CFL thrives in Regina, because I don't live there, or how shitty MLS does in Dallas because I don't live there either. We're comparing the Argos to TFC and their relative success in Toronto because this issue (Argos to BMO) is happening in Toronto.
To the same anonymous genius who talks about MLS folding, ....I laugh. New Stadia are being built, (New York, Red bull Arena), expansion teams are coming into the league (Seattle last year, Philly Next year, with Vancouver and Montreal in the distance horizon.) Sounds pretty healthy to me. TFC is considered to be one of the biggest financial sucess' in MLS as well. A marquee team, with some of the best fan support. Will it last? Who knows, I bet you thought the Raptors would fail too, because "Basketball isn't Canadian" and the ratings aren't high, last I checked they are their 15th year in the NBA, with top 10 attendance.
Can the Argos say they are a marquee CFL franchise? Nope. They won't fold, only because as most of their former owners can attest, they didn't buy the Argos for profit. The team was bankrupt in 2003....don't think it can't happen again. And with the new economic climate GOOD LUCK finding another sucker to foot the bill for this team.(Unless Braley is still in the fold).
When you have some numbers or facts to bring to the table that dispute the obvious truths besides your nationalistic "It's our game" babble, let me know. Until then I won't join you in your fantasy land.
Good day.
nukinfuts,
your posts are like zamboni's, even after 100,000 km in milage, they never really go anywhere.
@stu gotz,
Nukinfuts actually has something to say and brings up valid points, where as you are obviously a troll with nothing to bring to the table so you attempt to bash what he said. Typical of someone weakminded when they are defeated in a discussion. Well done.
6.1 million fans watched the Grey Cup, just to give you 2000 TFC fans some perspective. Stop pretending you're "UK Football Enthusiasts" and get a grip. Why not go back to pretending Toronto is a Hockey town? That was a lot more fun to watch. What a sorry (and small and insignificant) group you TFC fans are.
bring back the blizzard,screw tfc.
The Grey Cup actually peaked at 8.35 million viewers....comparing TFC's 3 years of history the Argo's 100 plus is the definition of a joke.
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